Discussion:
Bernie Madoff - a financial genius of all times
(too old to reply)
Old Pif
2009-01-18 16:49:56 UTC
Permalink
I thought that we already got the best of Uncle Bernie's story. Not
yet. Now read this ->

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE50F0BY20090116

************************************************************************************************************
Madoff's fund may not have made a single trade
Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:55am EST

BOSTON (Reuters) - Bernie Madoff's investment fund may never have
executed a single trade, industry officials say, suggesting detailed
statements mailed to investors each month may have been an elaborate
mirage in a $50 billion fraud.
************************************************************************************************************
kim
2009-01-18 17:36:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Old Pif
I thought that we already got the best of Uncle Bernie's story. Not
yet. Now read this ->
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE50F0BY20090116
************************************************************************************************************
Madoff's fund may not have made a single trade
Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:55am EST
BOSTON (Reuters) - Bernie Madoff's investment fund may never have
executed a single trade, industry officials say, suggesting detailed
statements mailed to investors each month may have been an elaborate
mirage in a $50 billion fraud.
************************************************************************************************************
Genius - no. Con man - yes.
If he was a genius, his scam wouldn't fall apart. It was just aided
by the incompetence of the government and others he imposed his
confidence on.
Old Pif
2009-01-18 19:10:05 UTC
Permalink
Genius - no.  Con man - yes.
If he was a genius, his scam wouldn't fall apart.  It was just aided
by the incompetence of the government and others he imposed his
confidence on.
Well, equally so, we can say that he has been somewhat unlucky. If the
financial crisis had come later in time he might be dead (he is 70
something, remember) and the regulators would have nobody to grab for
balls. You don't need to be successful indefinitely. Just for your
life time. Look at all those famous economists. They have made fame
and (small) fortune on their crazy theories living in intellectual and
material comfort leaving the dirty work of sorting out the mess to the
others.
kim
2009-01-18 19:17:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Old Pif
Genius - no.  Con man - yes.
If he was a genius, his scam wouldn't fall apart.  It was just aided
by the incompetence of the government and others he imposed his
confidence on.
Well, equally so, we can say that he has been somewhat unlucky. If the
financial crisis had come later in time he might be dead (he is 70
something, remember) and the regulators would have nobody to grab for
balls. You don't need to be successful indefinitely. Just for your
life time. Look at all those famous economists. They have made fame
and (small) fortune on their crazy theories living in intellectual and
material comfort leaving the dirty work of sorting out the mess to the
others.
Agreed. Hope he gets his just desserts before he gets off easy like
Ken Lay.
fruitella
2009-01-18 22:39:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Old Pif
Well, equally so, we can say that he has been somewhat unlucky. If the
financial crisis had come later in time he might be dead (he is 70
something, remember) and the regulators would have nobody to grab for
balls. You don't need to be successful indefinitely. Just for your
life time.
I do think he has stashed a significant amount overseas in tax haven
countries where so called banking secrecy laws enourage criminal
activity and money laundering. e.g switzerland, cayman islands,
singapore..etc

I'm sure he's put the money aside for his family and relatives to pick
up (if they have not already) once the coast is clear.

He is not the only scammer. Lots of his investors who have over the
years drawn out way more money than they ever put in are now going to
get another bonanza from the govt.as compensation.
Arindam Banerjee
2009-01-18 23:04:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Old Pif
Genius - no.  Con man - yes.
If he was a genius, his scam wouldn't fall apart.  It was just aided
by the incompetence of the government and others he imposed his
confidence on.
Well, equally so, we can say that he has been somewhat unlucky. If the
financial crisis had come later in time he might be dead (he is 70
something, remember) and the regulators would have nobody to grab for
balls. You don't need to be successful indefinitely. Just for your
life time. Look at all those famous economists. They have made fame
and (small) fortune on their crazy theories living in intellectual and
material comfort leaving the dirty work of sorting out the mess to the
others.
But isn't the whole capitalist system (share markets, real estate,
using other people's money to make your own money) a Ponzi scheme?
Chaps who don't sell at the right time always lose. And there are
always suckers born every minute. There are only variations in the
rate at which they are conned. Madoff knew all this very well indeed
- who could know better - and was simply totally unscrupulous about it!
Old Pif
2009-01-19 00:07:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arindam Banerjee
But isn't the whole capitalist system (share markets, real estate,
using other people's money to make your own money) a Ponzi scheme?
Chaps who don't sell at the right time always lose.  And there are
always suckers born every minute.  There are only variations in the
rate at which they are conned.  Madoff knew all this very well indeed
- who could know better - and was simply totally unscrupulous about it!
Most of people believe (may be in vain) that if they pay money they
get something. The new economy that has been developing as we speak is
that they pay money and get nothing. It is the whole new world very
different from the old capitalism which traditionally claimed customer
satisfaction, product and service quality to be decisive factor in the
capitalist success. Madoff is a think tank of this new economy
alongside with the other inventive people. So, you see, it is not
about selling at the right time. It is something fundamentally
different.
Stray Dog
2009-01-19 00:49:55 UTC
Permalink
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 16:07:37 -0800 (PST)
Newsgroups: alt.computer.consultants, alt.politics.economics, sci.econ,
alt.politics.republican, soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: Bernie Madoff - a financial genius of all times
Post by Arindam Banerjee
But isn't the whole capitalist system (share markets, real estate,
using other people's money to make your own money) a Ponzi scheme?
Chaps who don't sell at the right time always lose.  And there are
always suckers born every minute.  There are only variations in the
rate at which they are conned.  Madoff knew all this very well indeed
- who could know better - and was simply totally unscrupulous about it!
Most of people believe (may be in vain) that if they pay money they
get something. The new economy that has been developing as we speak is
that they pay money and get nothing. It is the whole new world very
different from the old capitalism which traditionally claimed customer
satisfaction, product and service quality to be decisive factor in the
capitalist success. Madoff is a think tank of this new economy
alongside with the other inventive people. So, you see, it is not
about selling at the right time. It is something fundamentally
different.
The whole stock market operation, therefore, is mostly a gambling
operation disguised under the label "investing" and smothered with
"efficient market" dogma to make it look like "investor" success depends,
in a cause-and-effect way, on meritable ability at "analysis" that feeds
into "efficient market" knowledge/decision-making as if it
were...almost....money/capital _engineering_. ;-)

So, we could actually _build_ money out of dust, right? Just like bridges
and highways and skyscrapers?

;-\
Arindam Banerjee
2009-01-19 03:25:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stray Dog
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 16:07:37 -0800 (PST)
Newsgroups: alt.computer.consultants, alt.politics.economics, sci.econ,
    alt.politics.republican, soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: Bernie Madoff - a financial genius of all times
Post by Arindam Banerjee
But isn't the whole capitalist system (share markets, real estate,
using other people's money to make your own money) a Ponzi scheme?
Chaps who don't sell at the right time always lose.  And there are
always suckers born every minute.  There are only variations in the
rate at which they are conned.  Madoff knew all this very well indeed
- who could know better - and was simply totally unscrupulous about it!
Most of people believe (may be in vain) that if they pay money they
get something. The new economy that has been developing as we speak is
that they pay money and get nothing. It is the whole new world very
different from the old capitalism which traditionally claimed customer
satisfaction, product and service quality to be decisive factor in the
capitalist success. Madoff is a think tank of this new economy
alongside with the other inventive people. So, you see, it is not
about selling at the right time. It is something fundamentally
different.
The whole stock market operation, therefore, is mostly a gambling
operation disguised under the label "investing" and smothered with
"efficient market" dogma to make it look like "investor" success depends,
in a cause-and-effect way, on meritable ability at "analysis" that feeds
into "efficient market" knowledge/decision-making as if it
were...almost....money/capital _engineering_. ;-)
Indeed. I applied my knowledge in queueing theory to the present
mess, and am happy to say, gained a lot!
Post by Stray Dog
So, we could actually  _build_ money out of dust, right? Just like bridges
and highways and skyscrapers?
In a pure gambling system, assuming zero establishment costs, we have
a no-win system on the *whole* for all the players - in teletraffic
terms, it is thus "stationary". On the small time scale, there are
fluctuations that affect individuals. Some win, others lose. To
leave when you are up, is to ensure a small win. If everyone did
that, gambling would become unprofitable and then cease.
Post by Stray Dog
;-\- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Rod Speed
2009-01-19 03:32:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Stray Dog
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 16:07:37 -0800 (PST)
Newsgroups: alt.computer.consultants, alt.politics.economics,
sci.econ, alt.politics.republican, soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: Bernie Madoff - a financial genius of all times
Post by Arindam Banerjee
But isn't the whole capitalist system (share markets, real estate,
using other people's money to make your own money) a Ponzi scheme?
Chaps who don't sell at the right time always lose. And there are
always suckers born every minute. There are only variations in the
rate at which they are conned. Madoff knew all this very well
indeed - who could know better - and was simply totally
unscrupulous about it!
Most of people believe (may be in vain) that if they pay money they
get something. The new economy that has been developing as we speak
is that they pay money and get nothing. It is the whole new world
very different from the old capitalism which traditionally claimed
customer satisfaction, product and service quality to be decisive
factor in the capitalist success. Madoff is a think tank of this
new economy alongside with the other inventive people. So, you see,
it is not about selling at the right time. It is something
fundamentally different.
The whole stock market operation, therefore, is mostly a gambling
operation disguised under the label "investing" and smothered with
"efficient market" dogma to make it look like "investor" success
depends, in a cause-and-effect way, on meritable ability at
"analysis" that feeds into "efficient market"
knowledge/decision-making as if it were...almost....money/capital
_engineering_. ;-)
Indeed. I applied my knowledge in queueing theory to the present
mess, and am happy to say, gained a lot!
Post by Stray Dog
So, we could actually _build_ money out of dust, right? Just like
bridges and highways and skyscrapers?
In a pure gambling system, assuming zero establishment costs,
we have a no-win system on the *whole* for all the players -
Pity we dont see anything like that with the stockmarket, or the real estate market either.
Post by Arindam Banerjee
in teletraffic terms, it is thus "stationary". On the small time scale,
there are fluctuations that affect individuals. Some win, others lose.
To leave when you are up, is to ensure a small win. If everyone did
that, gambling would become unprofitable and then cease.
And it doesnt become unprofitable with the stock market
or the property market and neither of those cesses either.
Arindam Banerjee
2009-01-19 04:05:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Stray Dog
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 16:07:37 -0800 (PST)
Newsgroups: alt.computer.consultants, alt.politics.economics,
sci.econ, alt.politics.republican, soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: Bernie Madoff - a financial genius of all times
Post by Arindam Banerjee
But isn't the whole capitalist system (share markets, real estate,
using other people's money to make your own money) a Ponzi scheme?
Chaps who don't sell at the right time always lose. And there are
always suckers born every minute. There are only variations in the
rate at which they are conned. Madoff knew all this very well
indeed - who could know better - and was simply totally
unscrupulous about it!
Most of people believe (may be in vain) that if they pay money they
get something. The new economy that has been developing as we speak
is that they pay money and get nothing. It is the whole new world
very different from the old capitalism which traditionally claimed
customer satisfaction, product and service quality to be decisive
factor in the capitalist success. Madoff is a think tank of this
new economy alongside with the other inventive people. So, you see,
it is not about selling at the right time. It is something
fundamentally different.
The whole stock market operation, therefore, is mostly a gambling
operation disguised under the label "investing" and smothered with
"efficient market" dogma to make it look like "investor" success
depends, in a cause-and-effect way, on meritable ability at
"analysis" that feeds into "efficient market"
knowledge/decision-making as if it were...almost....money/capital
_engineering_. ;-)
Indeed.  I applied my knowledge in queueing theory to the present
mess, and am happy to say, gained a lot!
Post by Stray Dog
So, we could actually _build_ money out of dust, right? Just like
bridges and highways and skyscrapers?
In a pure gambling system, assuming zero establishment costs,
we have a no-win system on the *whole* for all the players -
Pity we dont see anything like that with the stockmarket, or the real estate market either.
The stockmarket or the real estate are not casinos. The profits and
losses take place over extended periods,for stocks are investment
properties. And yes so long as populations keep on increasing, so
long as people continue to be greedy, so long as there are no major
nuclear wars, these ponzi schemes will keep on flourishing. One major
nuclear war and then we shall see what happens to the stockmarket or
the real estate!
Post by Rod Speed
in teletraffic terms, it is thus "stationary".  On the small time scale,
there are fluctuations that affect individuals.  Some win, others lose.
To leave when you are up, is to ensure a small win.  If everyone did
that, gambling would become unprofitable and then cease.
And it doesnt become unprofitable with the stock market
or the property market and neither of those cesses either.
But even without drastic issues as I mentioned, there are short-term
(a few years span) negative phases. As for the future, que sera sera.

- Hide quoted text -
Post by Rod Speed
- Show quoted text -
Rod Speed
2009-01-19 04:49:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Stray Dog
Post by Old Pif
Post by Arindam Banerjee
But isn't the whole capitalist system (share markets, real
estate, using other people's money to make your own money)
a Ponzi scheme? Chaps who don't sell at the right time always
lose. And there are always suckers born every minute. There
are only variations in the rate at which they are conned. Madoff
knew all this very well indeed - who could know better - and
was simply totally unscrupulous about it!
Most of people believe (may be in vain) that if they pay money
they get something. The new economy that has been developing
as we speak is that they pay money and get nothing. It is the
whole new world very different from the old capitalism which
traditionally claimed customer satisfaction, product and service
quality to be decisive factor in the capitalist success. Madoff
is a think tank of this new economy alongside with the other
inventive people. So, you see, it is not about selling at the
right time. It is something fundamentally different.
The whole stock market operation, therefore, is mostly a gambling
operation disguised under the label "investing" and smothered with
"efficient market" dogma to make it look like "investor" success
depends, in a cause-and-effect way, on meritable ability at
"analysis" that feeds into "efficient market" knowledge/decision-making
as if it were...almost....money/capital _engineering_. ;-)
Indeed. I applied my knowledge in queueing theory to
the present mess, and am happy to say, gained a lot!
Post by Stray Dog
So, we could actually _build_ money out of dust, right?
Just like bridges and highways and skyscrapers?
In a pure gambling system, assuming zero establishment costs,
we have a no-win system on the *whole* for all the players -
Pity we dont see anything like that with the stockmarket, or the real estate market either.
The stockmarket or the real estate are not casinos.
So why did you start mindlessly rabbitting on about gambling
systems when stockmarkets and real estate was being discussed ?
Post by Arindam Banerjee
The profits and losses take place over extended
periods, for stocks are investment properties.
So why did you start mindlessly rabbitting on about gambling
systems when stockmarkets and real estate was being discussed ?
Post by Arindam Banerjee
And yes so long as populations keep on increasing, so long
as people continue to be greedy, so long as there are no major
nuclear wars, these ponzi schemes will keep on flourishing.
You wouldnt know what a real ponzi scheme was if one bit you on your lard black arse.
Post by Arindam Banerjee
One major nuclear war
Taint gunna happen, you watch.
Post by Arindam Banerjee
and then we shall see what happens to the stockmarket or the real estate!
Post by Rod Speed
in teletraffic terms, it is thus "stationary". On the small time
scale, there are fluctuations that affect individuals. Some win,
others lose. To leave when you are up, is to ensure a small win. If
everyone did that, gambling would become unprofitable and then cease.
And it doesnt become unprofitable with the stock market
or the property market and neither of those cesses either.
But even without drastic issues as I mentioned, there
are short-term (a few years span) negative phases.
You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist pathetic excuses for bullshit artists ?
Post by Arindam Banerjee
As for the future, que sera sera.
As for the future, stockmarkets and the real estate market
will keep delivering worthwhile returns over the long haul,
because they are nothing even remotely resembling anything
like ponzi schemes which never ever do over the long haul.
Stray Dog
2009-01-19 14:43:39 UTC
Permalink
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 19:25:35 -0800 (PST)
Newsgroups: alt.computer.consultants, alt.politics.economics, sci.econ,
alt.politics.republican, soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: Bernie Madoff - a financial genius of all times
Post by Stray Dog
Post by Old Pif
Post by Arindam Banerjee
rate at which they are conned.  Madoff knew all this very well indeed
- who could know better - and was simply totally unscrupulous about it!
Most of people believe (may be in vain) that if they pay money they
get something. The new economy that has been developing as we speak is
that they pay money and get nothing. It is the whole new world very
different from the old capitalism which traditionally claimed customer
satisfaction, product and service quality to be decisive factor in the
capitalist success. Madoff is a think tank of this new economy
alongside with the other inventive people. So, you see, it is not
about selling at the right time. It is something fundamentally
different.
The whole stock market operation, therefore, is mostly a gambling
operation disguised under the label "investing" and smothered with
"efficient market" dogma to make it look like "investor" success depends,
in a cause-and-effect way, on meritable ability at "analysis" that feeds
into "efficient market" knowledge/decision-making as if it
were...almost....money/capital _engineering_. ;-)
Indeed. I applied my knowledge in queueing theory to the present
mess, and am happy to say, gained a lot!
Be careful, guys in the inner circle at AIG (and others, eg., LTCM) got
overconfident and got burned, too.
Post by Stray Dog
So, we could actually  _build_ money out of dust, right? Just like bridges
and highways and skyscrapers?
In a pure gambling system, assuming zero establishment costs, we have
a no-win system on the *whole* for all the players - in teletraffic
terms, it is thus "stationary". On the small time scale, there are
fluctuations that affect individuals. Some win, others lose. To
leave when you are up, is to ensure a small win. If everyone did
that, gambling would become unprofitable and then cease.
The other situation is when the "management" in the gambling system
decides to cheat.

Presumably you are aware that the payoff rate on the slot machines can be
adjusted?

And, I'll pass on my advice: better to sell lottery tickets than to buy
them.

;-)
Post by Stray Dog
;-\- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Arindam Banerjee
2009-01-19 21:17:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stray Dog
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 19:25:35 -0800 (PST)
Newsgroups: alt.computer.consultants, alt.politics.economics, sci.econ,
    alt.politics.republican, soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: Bernie Madoff - a financial genius of all times
Post by Stray Dog
Post by Old Pif
Post by Arindam Banerjee
rate at which they are conned.  Madoff knew all this very well indeed
- who could know better - and was simply totally unscrupulous about it!
Most of people believe (may be in vain) that if they pay money they
get something. The new economy that has been developing as we speak is
that they pay money and get nothing. It is the whole new world very
different from the old capitalism which traditionally claimed customer
satisfaction, product and service quality to be decisive factor in the
capitalist success. Madoff is a think tank of this new economy
alongside with the other inventive people. So, you see, it is not
about selling at the right time. It is something fundamentally
different.
The whole stock market operation, therefore, is mostly a gambling
operation disguised under the label "investing" and smothered with
"efficient market" dogma to make it look like "investor" success depends,
in a cause-and-effect way, on meritable ability at "analysis" that feeds
into "efficient market" knowledge/decision-making as if it
were...almost....money/capital _engineering_. ;-)
Indeed.  I applied my knowledge in queueing theory to the present
mess, and am happy to say, gained a lot!
Be careful, guys in the inner circle at AIG (and others, eg., LTCM) got
overconfident and got burned, too.
No worries, Stray Dog. My slightly complex maths (based upon non-
linear analysis of inter-related supply-demand systems, and factoring
in customer whims among others as feedback) indicates that we are now
in the period of "ringing" and unless positive and fundamental
systematic changes take place, there is no chance of prices peaking.
In broader terms, investing money in present conditions is giving good
money to thieves and incompetents and liars, who are least bothered
about genuine technical or moral advancements, so don't invest. All I
did was to "cash" my super in 2007 - and no I do not have a time
machine, just predictive maths on a nice spreadsheet.
Post by Stray Dog
Post by Stray Dog
So, we could actually  _build_ money out of dust, right? Just like bridges
and highways and skyscrapers?
In a pure gambling system, assuming zero establishment costs, we have
a no-win system on the *whole* for all the players - in teletraffic
terms, it is thus "stationary".  On the small time scale, there are
fluctuations that affect individuals.  Some win, others lose.  To
leave when you are up, is to ensure a small win.  If everyone did
that, gambling would become unprofitable and then cease.
The other situation is when the "management" in the gambling system
decides to cheat.
Of course. You will note that I had assumed zero establishment
costs. When management rakes in its take, then the share-out is
correspondingly less among the gamblers. Which of course happens in
any gambling den. Exceptions are like the kitty parties which
housewives used to have in the seventies, before credit cards. (They
all put in a monthly sum, lots were drawn, and the winner got an early
lump sum.) But then the hostess had to spend for the party, but then
again she was invited to other parties so on the whole she got her
money back.
Post by Stray Dog
Presumably you are aware that the payoff rate on the slot machines can be
adjusted?
Yes, yes.
Post by Stray Dog
And, I'll pass on my advice: better to sell lottery tickets than to buy
them.
Rod Speed
2009-01-19 22:02:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Stray Dog
Post by Stray Dog
Post by Old Pif
Post by Arindam Banerjee
rate at which they are conned. Madoff knew all this very well
indeed - who could know better - and was simply totally
unscrupulous about it!
Most of people believe (may be in vain) that if they pay money
they get something. The new economy that has been developing as
we speak is that they pay money and get nothing. It is the whole
new world very different from the old capitalism which
traditionally claimed customer satisfaction, product and service
quality to be decisive factor in the capitalist success. Madoff
is a think tank of this new economy alongside with the other
inventive people. So, you see, it is not about selling at the
right time. It is something fundamentally different.
The whole stock market operation, therefore, is mostly a gambling
operation disguised under the label "investing" and smothered with
"efficient market" dogma to make it look like "investor" success
depends, in a cause-and-effect way, on meritable ability at
"analysis" that feeds into "efficient market" knowledge/decision-making
as if it were...almost....money/capital _engineering_. ;-)
Indeed. I applied my knowledge in queueing theory to
the present mess, and am happy to say, gained a lot!
Be careful, guys in the inner circle at AIG (and others,
eg., LTCM) got overconfident and got burned, too.
No worries, Stray Dog. My slightly complex maths (based upon non-
linear analysis of inter-related supply-demand systems, and factoring
in customer whims among others as feedback) indicates that we are
now in the period of "ringing" and unless positive and fundamental
systematic changes take place, there is no chance of prices peaking.
In broader terms, investing money in present conditions is giving good
money to thieves and incompetents and liars, who are least bothered
about genuine technical or moral advancements, so don't invest.
That particular money isnt about 'invest' its about avoiding a complete implosion
of the financial system and another great depression or worse that would result.

And the money isnt 'given' either.
Post by Arindam Banerjee
All I did was to "cash" my super in 2007 - and no I do not have
a time machine, just predictive maths on a nice spreadsheet.
Just wanking with numbers when you dont have a clue about those basics.
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Stray Dog
Post by Stray Dog
So, we could actually _build_ money out of dust, right?
Just like bridges and highways and skyscrapers?
In a pure gambling system, assuming zero establishment costs, we
have a no-win system on the *whole* for all the players - in
teletraffic terms, it is thus "stationary". On the small time
scale, there are fluctuations that affect individuals. Some win,
others lose. To
leave when you are up, is to ensure a small win. If everyone did
that, gambling would become unprofitable and then cease.
The other situation is when the "management"
in the gambling system decides to cheat.
Of course. You will note that I had assumed zero establishment costs.
Stupid assumption.
Post by Arindam Banerjee
When management rakes in its take, then the share-out
is correspondingly less among the gamblers.
Neither the stockmarket or the property market is gambling.
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Which of course happens in any gambling den.
Neither the stockmarket or the property market is a gambling den.
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Exceptions are like the kitty parties which housewives
used to have in the seventies, before credit cards.
Irrelevant to the stockmarket and property markets being discussed.
Post by Arindam Banerjee
(They all put in a monthly sum, lots were drawn, and the
winner got an early lump sum.) But then the hostess had
to spend for the party, but then again she was invited to
other parties so on the whole she got her money back.
Irrelevant to the stockmarket and property markets being discussed.
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Stray Dog
Presumably you are aware that the payoff rate on the slot machines can be adjusted?
Yes, yes.
Post by Stray Dog
And, I'll pass on my advice: better to sell lottery tickets than to buy them.
Stray Dog
2009-01-19 23:03:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Stray Dog
Post by Stray Dog
in a cause-and-effect way, on meritable ability at "analysis" that feeds
into "efficient market" knowledge/decision-making as if it
were...almost....money/capital _engineering_. ;-)
Indeed.  I applied my knowledge in queueing theory to the present
mess, and am happy to say, gained a lot!
Be careful, guys in the inner circle at AIG (and others, eg., LTCM) got
overconfident and got burned, too.
No worries, Stray Dog. My slightly complex maths (based upon non-
linear analysis of inter-related supply-demand systems, and factoring
in customer whims among others as feedback) indicates that we are now
in the period of "ringing" and unless positive and fundamental
systematic changes take place, there is no chance of prices peaking.
In broader terms, investing money in present conditions is giving good
money to thieves and incompetents and liars, who are least bothered
about genuine technical or moral advancements, so don't invest. All I
did was to "cash" my super in 2007 - and no I do not have a time
machine, just predictive maths on a nice spreadsheet.
Maybe you should start your own hedge fund? Get investors. Then make a big
profit and fund your flying saucer uni-force propulsion experiments.

Also, I sent you some more private email, including relevant to your warp
drive ideas.
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Stray Dog
Post by Stray Dog
So, we could actually  _build_ money out of dust, right? Just like bridges
and highways and skyscrapers?
In a pure gambling system, assuming zero establishment costs, we have
a no-win system on the *whole* for all the players - in teletraffic
terms, it is thus "stationary".  On the small time scale, there are
fluctuations that affect individuals.  Some win, others lose.  To
leave when you are up, is to ensure a small win.  If everyone did
that, gambling would become unprofitable and then cease.
The other situation is when the "management" in the gambling system
decides to cheat.
Of course. You will note that I had assumed zero establishment
costs. When management rakes in its take, then the share-out is
correspondingly less among the gamblers. Which of course happens in
any gambling den. Exceptions are like the kitty parties which
housewives used to have in the seventies, before credit cards. (They
all put in a monthly sum, lots were drawn, and the winner got an early
lump sum.) But then the hostess had to spend for the party, but then
again she was invited to other parties so on the whole she got her
money back.
I actually knew a guy who took investment money and played the market and
promised up to 35% return to investors, and he took everything above
that.

However, I also knew, indirectly, one of his investors who lost all their
money, too.
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Stray Dog
Presumably you are aware that the payoff rate on the slot machines can be
adjusted?
Yes, yes.
So, another idea for you is to open a casino ...and...you know...skim the
profits. ;-)
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Stray Dog
And, I'll pass on my advice: better to sell lottery tickets than to buy
them.
You didn't comment on this valuable, guaranteed money-maker!!!
Arindam Banerjee
2009-01-19 23:23:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stray Dog
Post by Stray Dog
Post by Stray Dog
in a cause-and-effect way, on meritable ability at "analysis" that feeds
into "efficient market" knowledge/decision-making as if it
were...almost....money/capital _engineering_. ;-)
Indeed.  I applied my knowledge in queueing theory to the present
mess, and am happy to say, gained a lot!
Be careful, guys in the inner circle at AIG (and others, eg., LTCM) got
overconfident and got burned, too.
No worries, Stray Dog.  My slightly complex maths (based upon non-
linear analysis of inter-related supply-demand systems, and factoring
in customer whims among others as feedback) indicates that we are now
in the period of "ringing" and unless positive and fundamental
systematic changes take place, there is no chance of prices peaking.
In broader terms, investing money in present conditions is giving good
money to thieves and incompetents and liars, who are least bothered
about genuine technical or moral advancements, so don't invest.  All I
did was to "cash" my super in 2007 - and no I do not have a time
machine, just predictive maths on a nice spreadsheet.
Maybe you should start your own hedge fund? Get investors. Then make a big
profit and fund your flying saucer uni-force propulsion experiments.
Ah dear doggie, I do not have *that* sort of drive, thank goodness. I
really am not that interested in making money, merely defending what I
got from the predators. Remember what I quoted from Bill?

If it is the will of the Great Goddess, then I will have the funds to
make my experiments. If not, not. Other chaps later on will do it.
Quod scripsi, scripsi - all there in "To the Stars!" at
www.users.bigpond.com/adda1234/index.htm It so happens, that means
must be spotless when attempting to do anything really good. This is
from my Catholic training in moral science. If the likes of His
Holiness the Pope or Her Majesty the Queen of England or Mr Obama or
The President of China will fund me, then it will be just great! Oh
well, if these great personalities do not oblige, then I'll have to
wage-slave for another ten years (hopefully I will remain employed,
remain alive and healthy, what with depression and all one never
knows) then I can fund it with my own savings and hopefully with the
permission of Mrs.B - $500,000 spent on research and development in
Eastern India should carry quite far.
Post by Stray Dog
Also, I sent you some more private email, including relevant to your warp
drive ideas.
Not warp drive, dear doggie. I don't go in for relativistic bullshit,
don't you understand that?
Post by Stray Dog
Post by Stray Dog
Post by Stray Dog
So, we could actually  _build_ money out of dust, right? Just like bridges
and highways and skyscrapers?
In a pure gambling system, assuming zero establishment costs, we have
a no-win system on the *whole* for all the players - in teletraffic
terms, it is thus "stationary".  On the small time scale, there are
fluctuations that affect individuals.  Some win, others lose.  To
leave when you are up, is to ensure a small win.  If everyone did
that, gambling would become unprofitable and then cease.
The other situation is when the "management" in the gambling system
decides to cheat.
Of course.  You will note that I had assumed zero establishment
costs.   When management rakes in its take, then the share-out is
correspondingly less among the gamblers.  Which of course happens in
any gambling den.  Exceptions are like the kitty parties which
housewives used to have in the seventies, before credit cards.  (They
all put in a monthly sum, lots were drawn, and the winner got an early
lump sum.)  But then the hostess had to spend for the party, but then
again she was invited to other parties so on the whole she got her
money back.
I actually knew a guy who took investment money and played the market and
promised up to 35% return to investors, and he took everything above
that.
However, I also knew, indirectly, one of his investors who lost all their
money, too.
A kitty party is an honour system. It usually works when people know
each other very well, and so there is no question of cutting and
running.
Post by Stray Dog
Post by Stray Dog
Presumably you are aware that the payoff rate on the slot machines can be
adjusted?
Yes, yes.
So, another idea for you is to open a casino ...and...you know...skim the
profits.  ;-)
That is for your guj-jew friend to do. Depend upon it, he'll be
nothing like that chap in Casablanca.
Post by Stray Dog
Post by Stray Dog
And, I'll pass on my advice: better to sell lottery tickets than to buy
them.
You didn't comment on this valuable, guaranteed money-maker!!!
The only lottery tickets we sell do not make money for *us*, they only
make us slightly unpopular with our guests or friends. For charities,
you see.


- Hide quoted text -
Post by Stray Dog
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Stray Dog
2009-01-20 01:44:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Stray Dog
Post by Stray Dog
Post by Arindam Banerjee
mess, and am happy to say, gained a lot!
Be careful, guys in the inner circle at AIG (and others, eg., LTCM) got
overconfident and got burned, too.
No worries, Stray Dog.  My slightly complex maths (based upon non-
linear analysis of inter-related supply-demand systems, and factoring
in customer whims among others as feedback) indicates that we are now
in the period of "ringing" and unless positive and fundamental
systematic changes take place, there is no chance of prices peaking.
In broader terms, investing money in present conditions is giving good
money to thieves and incompetents and liars, who are least bothered
about genuine technical or moral advancements, so don't invest.  All I
did was to "cash" my super in 2007 - and no I do not have a time
machine, just predictive maths on a nice spreadsheet.
Maybe you should start your own hedge fund? Get investors. Then make a big
profit and fund your flying saucer uni-force propulsion experiments.
Ah dear doggie,
woof-woof

I do not have *that* sort of drive, thank goodness. I
Post by Arindam Banerjee
really am not that interested in making money, merely defending what I
got from the predators.
I call it: the CYA strategy.
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Remember what I quoted from Bill?
If it is the will of the Great Goddess, then I will have the funds to
make my experiments. If not, not. Other chaps later on will do it.
Quod scripsi, scripsi - all there in "To the Stars!" at
www.users.bigpond.com/adda1234/index.htm It so happens, that means
must be spotless when attempting to do anything really good. This is
from my Catholic training in moral science. If the likes of His
Holiness the Pope or Her Majesty the Queen of England or Mr Obama or
The President of China will fund me, then it will be just great! Oh
well, if these great personalities do not oblige, then I'll have to
wage-slave for another ten years (hopefully I will remain employed,
remain alive and healthy, what with depression and all one never
knows) then I can fund it with my own savings and hopefully with the
permission of Mrs.B - $500,000 spent on research and development in
Eastern India should carry quite far.
Hmmmmm.... maybe, after all, you really should play the lotto.
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Stray Dog
Also, I sent you some more private email, including relevant to your warp
drive ideas.
Not warp drive, dear doggie.
woof-woof

I don't go in for relativistic bullshit,
Post by Arindam Banerjee
don't you understand that?
Maybe some other bullshit? (or Butterfly shit?)
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Stray Dog
Of course.  You will note that I had assumed zero establishment
costs.   When management rakes in its take, then the share-out is
correspondingly less among the gamblers.  Which of course happens in
any gambling den.  Exceptions are like the kitty parties which
housewives used to have in the seventies, before credit cards.  (They
all put in a monthly sum, lots were drawn, and the winner got an early
lump sum.)  But then the hostess had to spend for the party, but then
again she was invited to other parties so on the whole she got her
money back.
I actually knew a guy who took investment money and played the market and
promised up to 35% return to investors, and he took everything above
that.
However, I also knew, indirectly, one of his investors who lost all their
money, too.
A kitty party is an honour system. It usually works when people know
each other very well, and so there is no question of cutting and
running.
I also know one other "club" and one person wanted out; I don't think she
was happy with the way things were going.
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Stray Dog
Yes, yes.
So, another idea for you is to open a casino ...and...you know...skim the
profits.  ;-)
That is for your guj-jew friend to do. Depend upon it, he'll be
nothing like that chap in Casablanca.
OK, so you have shown me you are definitely not interested in money.

OK.
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Stray Dog
Post by Stray Dog
And, I'll pass on my advice: better to sell lottery tickets than to buy
them.
You didn't comment on this valuable, guaranteed money-maker!!!
The only lottery tickets we sell do not make money for *us*, they only
make us slightly unpopular with our guests or friends. For charities,
you see.
Ahhhh...never hit up guests or friends. Just "marks".

woof-woof
harmony
2009-01-19 23:59:07 UTC
Permalink
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 19:25:35 -0800 (PST)
Newsgroups: alt.computer.consultants, alt.politics.economics, sci.econ,
alt.politics.republican, soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: Bernie Madoff - a financial genius of all times
Post by Stray Dog
Post by Old Pif
rate at which they are conned. Madoff knew all this very well indeed
- who could know better - and was simply totally unscrupulous about it!
Most of people believe (may be in vain) that if they pay money they
get something. The new economy that has been developing as we speak is
that they pay money and get nothing. It is the whole new world very
different from the old capitalism which traditionally claimed customer
satisfaction, product and service quality to be decisive factor in the
capitalist success. Madoff is a think tank of this new economy
alongside with the other inventive people. So, you see, it is not
about selling at the right time. It is something fundamentally
different.
The whole stock market operation, therefore, is mostly a gambling
operation disguised under the label "investing" and smothered with
"efficient market" dogma to make it look like "investor" success depends,
in a cause-and-effect way, on meritable ability at "analysis" that feeds
into "efficient market" knowledge/decision-making as if it
were...almost....money/capital _engineering_. ;-)
Indeed. I applied my knowledge in queueing theory to the present
mess, and am happy to say, gained a lot!
<<<Be careful, guys in the inner circle at AIG (and others, eg., LTCM) got
overconfident and got burned, too.>>>

---------------------------

he can "explain" anything after the fact. and he has "gained a lot" - moss?.
Post by Stray Dog
So, we could actually _build_ money out of dust, right? Just like bridges
and highways and skyscrapers?
In a pure gambling system, assuming zero establishment costs, we have
a no-win system on the *whole* for all the players - in teletraffic
terms, it is thus "stationary". On the small time scale, there are
fluctuations that affect individuals. Some win, others lose. To
leave when you are up, is to ensure a small win. If everyone did
that, gambling would become unprofitable and then cease.
The other situation is when the "management" in the gambling system
decides to cheat.

Presumably you are aware that the payoff rate on the slot machines can be
adjusted?

And, I'll pass on my advice: better to sell lottery tickets than to buy
them.

;-)
Post by Stray Dog
;-\- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Stray Dog
2009-01-20 01:52:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by harmony
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Stray Dog
into "efficient market" knowledge/decision-making as if it
were...almost....money/capital _engineering_. ;-)
Indeed. I applied my knowledge in queueing theory to the present
mess, and am happy to say, gained a lot!
<<<Be careful, guys in the inner circle at AIG (and others, eg., LTCM) got
overconfident and got burned, too.>>>
---------------------------
he can "explain" anything after the fact. and he has "gained a lot" - moss?.
Hi harmony,

I'll pass on the "moss" part, but, after all, we do have "high drama" here
on the NGs.
Arindam Banerjee
2009-01-19 00:53:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Old Pif
Post by Arindam Banerjee
But isn't the whole capitalist system (share markets, real estate,
using other people's money to make your own money) a Ponzi scheme?
Chaps who don't sell at the right time always lose.  And there are
always suckers born every minute.  There are only variations in the
rate at which they are conned.  Madoff knew all this very well indeed
- who could know better - and was simply totally unscrupulous about it!
Most of people believe (may be in vain) that if they pay money they
get something.
They could get more for the same elsewhere, if they cared to look.

The new economy that has been developing as we speak is
Post by Old Pif
that they pay money and get nothing.
Well, they had hope. And till the prices got busted, they had the
glow of being or at least feeling rich. Nothing can take those nice
feelings away, what? That is what remains!

It is the whole new world very
Post by Old Pif
different from the old capitalism which traditionally claimed customer
satisfaction, product and service quality to be decisive factor in the
capitalist success.
But that is still there. Products are better than ever, cheaper than
ever.
Post by Old Pif
Madoff is a think tank of this new economy
alongside with the other inventive people.
Now when we starting call crooks "inventive" what scope is there for
real inventors? What Madoff started is nothing new. In Kolkata some
clerks in the 1970s started a Ponzi scheme (Sanchayita) which gave
huge returns. It was busted in a few years, but lots of poor people
lost their money. The people who started early and sold out gained,
though.

So, you see, it is not
Post by Old Pif
about selling at the right time. It is something fundamentally
different.
It is always about buying and selling at the right time and the right
place, if profit is the only issue. But, to the balanced personality,
profit is just one of the issues. What to do with the profit, that is
the question.
Rod Speed
2009-01-19 00:31:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Old Pif
Genius - no. Con man - yes.
If he was a genius, his scam wouldn't fall apart. It was just aided
by the incompetence of the government and others he imposed his
confidence on.
Well, equally so, we can say that he has been somewhat unlucky. If
the financial crisis had come later in time he might be dead (he is
70 something, remember) and the regulators would have nobody to grab
for balls. You don't need to be successful indefinitely. Just for
your life time. Look at all those famous economists. They have made
fame and (small) fortune on their crazy theories living in
intellectual and material comfort leaving the dirty work of sorting
out the mess to the others.
But isn't the whole capitalist system (share markets, real estate,
using other people's money to make your own money) a Ponzi scheme?
Nope, the difference is that a ponzi scheme JUST pays out initially
to the early 'investors' out of the most recent money taken in.

Share markets and real estate are nothing like that. They do provide
a viable way to maintain the value of your assets over the long haul.

Using other people's money to make you own is a different matter entirely to a ponzi scheme,
essentially because when its done right, you do make real money using other people's money
and they get the return on their money that you signed up to provide as well. Most obviously
when you borrow money to buy an investment property that increase in value over time and
use the income from the property to pay those you borrowed the money back with etc.
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Chaps who don't sell at the right time always lose.
Wrong. In fact those that keep it over the long haul always gain.
Post by Arindam Banerjee
And there are always suckers born every minute.
Ponzi schemes are just one way of shafting suckers.
Post by Arindam Banerjee
There are only variations in the rate at which they are conned.
Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have never ever had a clue.
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Madoff knew all this very well indeed - who could know
better - and was simply totally unscrupulous about it!
Yes, his was a ponzi scheme. That doesnt mean that everything is a ponzi scheme.

We have names for things for a reason.
Arindam Banerjee
2009-01-19 00:46:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Old Pif
Genius - no. Con man - yes.
If he was a genius, his scam wouldn't fall apart. It was just aided
by the incompetence of the government and others he imposed his
confidence on.
Well, equally so, we can say that he has been somewhat unlucky. If
the financial crisis had come later in time he might be dead (he is
70 something, remember) and the regulators would have nobody to grab
for balls. You don't need to be successful indefinitely. Just for
your life time. Look at all those famous economists. They have made
fame and (small) fortune on their crazy theories living in
intellectual and material comfort leaving the dirty work of sorting
out the mess to the others.
But isn't the whole capitalist system (share markets, real estate,
using other people's money to make your own money) a Ponzi scheme?
Nope, the difference is that a ponzi scheme JUST pays out initially
to the early 'investors' out of the most recent money taken in.
Share markets and real estate are nothing like that. They do provide
a viable way to maintain the value of your assets over the long haul.
Using other people's money to make you own is a different matter entirely to a ponzi scheme,
essentially because when its done right, you do make real money using other people's money
and they get the return on their money that you signed up to provide as well. Most obviously
when you borrow money to buy an investment property that increase in value over time and
use the income from the property to pay those you borrowed the money back with etc.
So how is the assumption that the property value (or share value) will
always grow not equivalent to the basic assumption behind a Ponzi
scheme?
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Chaps who don't sell at the right time always lose.
Wrong. In fact those that keep it over the long haul always gain.
Heh-heh. Those smarter gain much more! In the short term there are
catastrophic losses, for the suckers.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Arindam Banerjee
And there are always suckers born every minute.
Ponzi schemes are just one way of shafting suckers.
Post by Arindam Banerjee
There are only variations in the rate at which they are conned.
Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have never ever had a clue.
I do not need clues from those totally shafted by majoritarian
dumbfuckery.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Madoff knew all this very well indeed - who could know
better - and was simply totally unscrupulous about it!
Yes, his was a ponzi scheme. That doesnt mean that everything is a ponzi scheme.
We have names for things for a reason.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Rod Speed
2009-01-19 02:00:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Old Pif
Genius - no. Con man - yes.
If he was a genius, his scam wouldn't fall apart.
It was just aided by the incompetence of the government
and others he imposed his confidence on.
Well, equally so, we can say that he has been somewhat unlucky. If
the financial crisis had come later in time he might be dead (he is
70 something, remember) and the regulators would have nobody to
grab for balls. You don't need to be successful indefinitely. Just
for your life time. Look at all those famous economists. They have
made fame and (small) fortune on their crazy theories living in
intellectual and material comfort leaving the dirty work of sorting
out the mess to the others.
But isn't the whole capitalist system (share markets, real estate,
using other people's money to make your own money) a Ponzi scheme?
Nope, the difference is that a ponzi scheme JUST pays out initially
to the early 'investors' out of the most recent money taken in.
Share markets and real estate are nothing like that. They do provide
a viable way to maintain the value of your assets over the long haul.
Using other people's money to make you own is a different matter
entirely to a ponzi scheme, essentially because when its done right,
you do make real money using other people's money and they get the
return on their money that you signed up to provide as well. Most
obviously when you borrow money to buy an investment property that
increase in value over time and use the income from the property to
pay those you borrowed the money back with etc.
So how is the assumption that the property value (or share value) will
always grow not equivalent to the basic assumption behind a Ponzi scheme?
You clearly dont have a clue what a ponzi scheme is about.

And operation like microsoft, that had the basic assumption that that
operation would grow over time is NOTHING like a ponzi scheme.

Just because something is intended to grow over time doesnt make it a ponzi scheme.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Chaps who don't sell at the right time always lose.
Wrong. In fact those that keep it over the long haul always gain.
Heh-heh. Those smarter gain much more!
Yes, but that doesnt make it a ponzi scheme.
Post by Arindam Banerjee
In the short term there are catastrophic losses, for the suckers.
Wrong with real estate. There are hardly ever catastrophic losses
for those who only borrow what they can afford to pay back.

The only real thing to avoid is buying property in what turns into
a ghost town, and its completely trivial to avoid doing that.
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Arindam Banerjee
And there are always suckers born every minute.
Ponzi schemes are just one way of shafting suckers.
Post by Arindam Banerjee
There are only variations in the rate at which they are conned.
Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have never ever had a clue.
I do not need clues from those totally shafted by majoritarian dumbfuckery.
Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Madoff knew all this very well indeed - who could know
better - and was simply totally unscrupulous about it!
Yes, his was a ponzi scheme. That doesnt mean that everything is a ponzi scheme.
We have names for things for a reason.
Arindam Banerjee
2009-01-19 02:48:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Old Pif
Genius - no. Con man - yes.
If he was a genius, his scam wouldn't fall apart.
It was just aided by the incompetence of the government
and others he imposed his confidence on.
Well, equally so, we can say that he has been somewhat unlucky. If
the financial crisis had come later in time he might be dead (he is
70 something, remember) and the regulators would have nobody to
grab for balls. You don't need to be successful indefinitely. Just
for your life time. Look at all those famous economists. They have
made fame and (small) fortune on their crazy theories living in
intellectual and material comfort leaving the dirty work of sorting
out the mess to the others.
But isn't the whole capitalist system (share markets, real estate,
using other people's money to make your own money) a Ponzi scheme?
Nope, the difference is that a ponzi scheme JUST pays out initially
to the early 'investors' out of the most recent money taken in.
Share markets and real estate are nothing like that. They do provide
a viable way to maintain the value of your assets over the long haul.
Using other people's money to make you own is a different matter
entirely to a ponzi scheme, essentially because when its done right,
you do make real money using other people's money and they get the
return on their money that you signed up to provide as well. Most
obviously when you borrow money to buy an investment property that
increase in value over time and use the income from the property to
pay those you borrowed the money back with etc.
So how is the assumption that the property value (or share value) will
always grow not equivalent to the basic assumption behind a Ponzi scheme?
You clearly dont have a clue what a ponzi scheme is about.
I do, you don't.
Stray Dog
2009-01-18 20:09:04 UTC
Permalink
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 08:49:56 -0800 (PST)
Newsgroups: alt.computer.consultants, alt.politics.economics, sci.econ,
alt.politics.republican, soc.culture.indian
Subject: Bernie Madoff - a financial genius of all times
I thought that we already got the best of Uncle Bernie's story. Not
yet. Now read this ->
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE50F0BY20090116
************************************************************************************************************
Madoff's fund may not have made a single trade
Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:55am EST
BOSTON (Reuters) - Bernie Madoff's investment fund may never have
executed a single trade, industry officials say, suggesting detailed
statements mailed to investors each month may have been an elaborate
mirage in a $50 billion fraud.
************************************************************************************************************
Well, if Enron can do "business" from one cell in a spreadsheet to another
cell in the same spreadsheet (on the same computer), with an Enron
employee, typing in orders in one cell, and receiving orders in another
cell, in the same spreadsheet, why can't Bernie M just press the "print"
button for the "sellected print area" on the spreadsheet and mail that
printout to the "depositor" and make the depositors feel good?
Sushi Fish
2009-01-19 01:40:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Old Pif
I thought that we already got the best of Uncle Bernie's story. Not
yet. Now read this ->
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE50F0BY20090116
************************************************************************************************************
Madoff's fund may not have made a single trade
Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:55am EST
BOSTON (Reuters) - Bernie Madoff's investment fund may never have
executed a single trade, industry officials say, suggesting detailed
statements mailed to investors each month may have been an elaborate
mirage in a $50 billion fraud.
************************************************************************************************************
incredible, the former NASDAQ chairman conned his own blood line big
time - just make up a good annual report and one can get by until
further notice.
pg
2009-01-19 08:06:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Old Pif
I thought that we already got the best of Uncle Bernie's story. Not
yet. Now read this ->
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE50F0BY20090116
************************************************************************************************************
Madoff's fund may not have made a single trade
Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:55am EST
BOSTON (Reuters) - Bernie Madoff's investment fund may never have
executed a single trade, industry officials say, suggesting detailed
statements mailed to investors each month may have been an elaborate
mirage in a $50 billion fraud.
************************************************************************************************************
A genius helped by morons running the SEC.

"About 10 years ago, Harry Markopolos, then chief investment officer
at Rampart Investment Management Co in Boston, asked risk management
consultant Daniel diBartolomeo to run Madoff's numbers after
Markopolos tried to emulate Madoff's strategy.

DiBartolomeo ran regression analyses and various calculations, but
failed to reconcile them. For a decade, Markopolos raised the issue
with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, which has come under
fire in Congress in recent weeks for failing to act on Markopolos's
warnings."
Democracy Highlander
2009-01-19 22:10:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Old Pif
Madoff's fund may not have made a single trade
Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:55am EST
BOSTON (Reuters) - Bernie Madoff's investment fund may never have
executed a single trade, industry officials say, suggesting detailed
statements mailed to investors each month may have been an elaborate
mirage in a $50 billion fraud.
It is called "financial innovation".

Remember our friends libertarians and neocons? Whenever we complained
on these newsgroups about offshoring manufacturing jobs weakening US
economy they were screaming:

"We do not need those stinky manufacturing jobs, send them all to
China and India. The future of US rely in financial innovation and new
financial service oriented economy. Do you really want to work with
an oily drill into a smelly manufacturing plant in dirty bluejeans, or
work on a computer in suit into a nice air conditioned room in a sky
scraper ? The future belong to financial innovators, look how much
money they make for our nation. Dow is over 14000, we just need less
government regulation so the financial innovation can achieve it
best."

And they did it. Madoff is just one of the innovators. Many more will
follow, just wait for hedge funds collapse...

Unbelievable, yesterday (do not remember which channel) there was a
conservative "economist" who spewed the imbecile phrase: "Yes we need
innovation in energy, in industry but also in financial sector and I
am affraid that more regulation over financial institutions will
cripple this innovation".
I was ready to fall down from the couch. After we see that all the
"financial innovation" was nothing but scam and fraud and fraud and
scam and that the imbecile "financial innovators" brought US economy
to the ground, there are still idiot imbecile sudo-economists who
still defend "financial innovation" and are concerned about
"regulation which cripple the innovation". On which planet that mad-
man is living onto ?
Stray Dog
2009-01-19 23:12:55 UTC
Permalink
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 14:10:22 -0800 (PST)
Newsgroups: alt.computer.consultants, alt.politics.economics, sci.econ,
alt.politics.republican, soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: Bernie Madoff - a financial genius of all times
Post by Old Pif
Madoff's fund may not have made a single trade
Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:55am EST
BOSTON (Reuters) - Bernie Madoff's investment fund may never have
executed a single trade, industry officials say, suggesting detailed
statements mailed to investors each month may have been an elaborate
mirage in a $50 billion fraud.
It is called "financial innovation".
Hi D.H.,

Yes, the acronym of the day. A few years ago it was "creative accounting"
(Enronics, remember?)
Remember our friends libertarians and neocons? Whenever we complained
on these newsgroups about offshoring manufacturing jobs weakening US
"We do not need those stinky manufacturing jobs, send them all to
China and India. The future of US rely in financial innovation and new
financial service oriented economy.
These guys thought they were going to set up a neo-plutocracy. Never mind
what happens to the poor people.

Do you really want to work with
an oily drill into a smelly manufacturing plant in dirty bluejeans, or
work on a computer in suit into a nice air conditioned room in a sky
scraper ? The future belong to financial innovators, look how much
money they make for our nation. Dow is over 14000, we just need less
government regulation so the financial innovation can achieve it
best."
And they did it. Madoff is just one of the innovators. Many more will
follow, just wait for hedge funds collapse...
I'm affraid that the accounting fraud will not end, and all kinds of more
Ponzi schemes, loophole exploitations, etc., will keep coming out of those
scheming and coniving brains.
Unbelievable, yesterday (do not remember which channel) there was a
conservative "economist" who spewed the imbecile phrase: "Yes we need
innovation in energy, in industry but also in financial sector and I
am affraid that more regulation over financial institutions will
cripple this innovation".
More regulation is the only thing that will keep them honest. We had many
decades of electric utility stability, little change in price, and some of
the most reliable electric generation in the world. And, what did
deregulation do? Californication! Price gouging, blackout manipulations,
market manipulaitons, ripoff of the public.
I was ready to fall down from the couch. After we see that all the
"financial innovation" was nothing but scam and fraud and fraud and
scam and that the imbecile "financial innovators" brought US economy
to the ground, there are still idiot imbecile sudo-economists who
still defend "financial innovation" and are concerned about
"regulation which cripple the innovation". On which planet that mad-
man is living onto ?
Makes you want to think maybe we really should go back to gold coins or
something, doesn't it? (not that that is all that great of an idea,
either).
pg
2009-01-19 23:38:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stray Dog
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 14:10:22 -0800 (PST)
Newsgroups: alt.computer.consultants, alt.politics.economics, sci.econ,
    alt.politics.republican, soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: Bernie Madoff - a financial genius of all times
Post by Old Pif
Madoff's fund may not have made a single trade
Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:55am EST
BOSTON (Reuters) - Bernie Madoff's investment fund may never have
executed a single trade, industry officials say, suggesting detailed
statements mailed to investors each month may have been an elaborate
mirage in a $50 billion fraud.
It is called "financial innovation".
Hi D.H.,
Yes, the acronym of the day. A few years ago it was "creative accounting"
(Enronics, remember?)
Remember our friends libertarians and neocons? Whenever we complained
on these newsgroups about offshoring manufacturing jobs weakening US
"We do not need those stinky manufacturing jobs, send them all to
China and India. The future of US rely in financial innovation and new
financial service oriented economy.
These guys thought they were going to set up a neo-plutocracy. Never mind
what happens to the poor people.
   Do you really want to work with
an oily drill into a smelly manufacturing plant in dirty bluejeans, or
work on a computer in suit into a nice air conditioned room in a sky
scraper ? The future belong to financial innovators, look how much
money they make for our nation. Dow is over 14000, we just need less
government regulation so the financial innovation can achieve it
best."
And they did it. Madoff is just one of the innovators. Many more will
follow, just wait for hedge funds collapse...
I'm affraid that the accounting fraud will not end, and all kinds of more
Ponzi schemes, loophole exploitations, etc., will keep coming out of those
scheming and coniving brains.
Why are you guys bitching about Wall Street ponzi scheme while in the
Main Street, we have a huge ponzi scheme known as the Social Security?

The Social Security system is the perfect example of LEGAL ponzi
scheme where the citizens have no choice but to keep on contributing
to the scam?
Post by Stray Dog
Unbelievable, yesterday (do not remember which channel)  there was a
conservative "economist" who spewed the imbecile phrase: "Yes we need
innovation in energy, in industry but also in financial sector and I
am affraid that more regulation over financial institutions will
cripple this innovation".
More regulation is the only thing that will keep them honest. We had many
decades of electric utility stability, little change in price, and some of
the most reliable electric generation in the world. And, what did
deregulation do? Californication! Price gouging, blackout manipulations,
market manipulaitons, ripoff of the public.
I was ready to fall down from the couch.  After we see that all the
"financial innovation" was nothing but scam and fraud and fraud and
scam and that the imbecile "financial innovators" brought US economy
to the ground, there are still idiot imbecile sudo-economists who
still defend "financial innovation" and are concerned about
"regulation which cripple the innovation". On which planet that mad-
man is living onto ?
Makes you want to think maybe we really should go back to gold coins or
something, doesn't it? (not that that is all that great of an idea,
either).
Old Pif
2009-01-20 00:32:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by pg
Why are you guys bitching about Wall Street ponzi scheme while in the
Main Street, we have a huge ponzi scheme known as the Social Security?
Because it plays important and positive role.
Stray Dog
2009-01-20 01:53:48 UTC
Permalink
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 16:32:39 -0800 (PST)
Newsgroups: alt.computer.consultants, alt.politics.economics, sci.econ,
alt.politics.republican, soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: Bernie Madoff - a financial genius of all times
Post by pg
Why are you guys bitching about Wall Street ponzi scheme while in the
Main Street, we have a huge ponzi scheme known as the Social Security?
Because it plays important and positive role.
"pg" is probably libertarian or just anti-govt.
pg
2009-01-20 01:59:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stray Dog
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 16:32:39 -0800 (PST)
Newsgroups: alt.computer.consultants, alt.politics.economics, sci.econ,
    alt.politics.republican, soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: Bernie Madoff - a financial genius of all times
Post by pg
Why are you guys bitching about Wall Street ponzi scheme while in the
Main Street, we have a huge ponzi scheme known as the Social Security?
Because it plays important and positive role.
"pg" is probably libertarian or just anti-govt.
Me anti-gov? HAHA !

I recognize no gov.
Stray Dog
2009-01-20 01:50:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by pg
Post by Stray Dog
Post by Democracy Highlander
And they did it. Madoff is just one of the innovators. Many more will
follow, just wait for hedge funds collapse...
I'm affraid that the accounting fraud will not end, and all kinds of more
Ponzi schemes, loophole exploitations, etc., will keep coming out of those
scheming and coniving brains.
Why are you guys bitching about Wall Street ponzi scheme while in the
Main Street, we have a huge ponzi scheme known as the Social Security?
I'll tell you why .......
Post by pg
The Social Security system is the perfect example of LEGAL ponzi
scheme where the citizens have no choice but to keep on contributing
to the scam?
....for decades and decades I contributed to SS, and now, I've been on the
receiving end for a couple of years: money gets deposited into my checking
account, and my wife gets SS money deposited into the same account (joint
account) and we happily see all this money coming back to us while we are
retired. :-)

Much better than 401k, where all of our friends who had 401k are crying
and bitching because they lost 20-50% of their assets recently.

Oh, yes, we also have pensions, too. So far, what they deposit into our
joint account has also been stable since we retired.
phil scott
2009-01-20 02:57:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stray Dog
Post by pg
Post by Stray Dog
Post by Democracy Highlander
And they did it. Madoff is just one of the innovators. Many more will
follow, just wait for hedge funds collapse...
I'm affraid that the accounting fraud will not end, and all kinds of more
Ponzi schemes, loophole exploitations, etc., will keep coming out of those
scheming and coniving brains.
Why are you guys bitching about Wall Street ponzi scheme while in the
Main Street, we have a huge ponzi scheme known as the Social Security?
I'll tell you why .......
Post by pg
The Social Security system is the perfect example of LEGAL ponzi
scheme where the citizens have no choice but to keep on contributing
to the scam?
....for decades and decades I contributed to SS, and now, I've been on the
receiving end for a couple of years: money gets deposited into my checking
account, and my wife gets SS money deposited into the same account (joint
account) and we happily see all this money coming back to us while we are
retired.  :-)
Much better than 401k, where all of our friends who had 401k are crying
and bitching because they lost 20-50% of their assets recently.
Oh, yes, we also have pensions, too. So far, what they deposit into our
joint account has also been stable since we retired.
that 401K thing is too bad. for years I stayed out (still out), I
figured that if the govt got desperate theyd start seizing those
accounts..now i see its on the table and also a target of the IRS if
they can find an angle on it.

these guys put in hard cash, now its half gone, and in dollars that
have devalued massively since they put the money in....
no accident.


Phil scott
Stray Dog
2009-01-20 17:31:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by phil scott
Post by Stray Dog
Oh, yes, we also have pensions, too. So far, what they deposit into our
joint account has also been stable since we retired.
that 401K thing is too bad. for years I stayed out (still out), I
figured that if the govt got desperate theyd start seizing those
accounts..now i see its on the table and also a target of the IRS if
they can find an angle on it.
I don't think they can do it unless they can show you cheated first.
Post by phil scott
these guys put in hard cash, now its half gone, and in dollars that
have devalued massively since they put the money in....
no accident.
Well, I'm comfortable with what our resources look like. Problem comes if
I get letters from SS and pensions saying "Sorry, we have to cut" and I
don't see that happening unless we get to 50% unemployment and more than
1-2 years of this world-wide depression.

There are guys here who still have not accepted the fact that both Japan
and Europe are also cratering.
Post by phil scott
Phil scott
Old Pif
2009-01-20 00:51:26 UTC
Permalink
On Jan 19, 5:10 pm, Democracy Highlander
Unbelievable, yesterday (do not remember which channel)  there was a
conservative "economist" who spewed the imbecile phrase: "Yes we need
innovation in energy, in industry but also in financial sector and I
am affraid that more regulation over financial institutions will
cripple this innovation".
I was ready to fall down from the couch.  After we see that all the
"financial innovation" was nothing but scam and fraud and fraud and
scam and that the imbecile "financial innovators" brought US economy
to the ground, there are still idiot imbecile sudo-economists who
still defend "financial innovation" and are concerned about
"regulation which cripple the innovation". On which planet that mad-
man is living onto ?
The trouble is that this the current way of thinking of many
politicians among both parties.

In the state I live - Connecticut - we have a world center of hedge
funds - Greenwich. And as all other "old" industries have declined,
this one along with two casinos provides something like 60-70% of the
state taxes. This year the state has discovered that it does not have
any tax revenue. Many hedge funds collapsed and people don't have
money to gamble in casinos. Politicians are naturally concerned but I
don't hear any sensible plans. All they are talking about is "new
economy", nobody has been able to specify what it is. They are
dreaming about new schemes that magically fill in the state coffer.
This mindset is reliably sitting in their brains apparently for a long
time because they seem don't understand how wealth is created. What I
am afraid most of all is that Obama got a lot of this people in his
economic team.
Stray Dog
2009-01-20 01:59:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Old Pif
Unbelievable, yesterday (do not remember which channel)  there was a
conservative "economist" who spewed the imbecile phrase: "Yes we need
innovation in energy, in industry but also in financial sector and I
am affraid that more regulation over financial institutions will
cripple this innovation".
I was ready to fall down from the couch.  After we see that all the
"financial innovation" was nothing but scam and fraud and fraud and
scam and that the imbecile "financial innovators" brought US economy
to the ground, there are still idiot imbecile sudo-economists who
still defend "financial innovation" and are concerned about
"regulation which cripple the innovation". On which planet that mad-
man is living onto ?
The trouble is that this the current way of thinking of many
politicians among both parties.
In the state I live - Connecticut - we have a world center of hedge
funds - Greenwich. And as all other "old" industries have declined,
this one along with two casinos provides something like 60-70% of the
state taxes.
Do you have a state lottery, too, by any chance?

This year the state has discovered that it does not have
Post by Old Pif
any tax revenue. Many hedge funds collapsed and people don't have
money to gamble in casinos. Politicians are naturally concerned but I
don't hear any sensible plans. All they are talking about is "new
economy", nobody has been able to specify what it is. They are
dreaming about new schemes that magically fill in the state coffer.
This mindset is reliably sitting in their brains apparently for a long
time because they seem don't understand how wealth is created. What I
am afraid most of all is that Obama got a lot of this people in his
economic team.
Good observation.

Maybe your state can apply to Obama for some billions in bailout money?
Old Pif
2009-01-20 02:41:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stray Dog
Maybe your state can apply to Obama for some billions in bailout money?
Huh ... they already have divided the stimulus package that has not
arrived yet.
Stray Dog
2009-01-20 14:22:29 UTC
Permalink
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 18:41:11 -0800 (PST)
Newsgroups: alt.computer.consultants, alt.politics.economics, sci.econ,
alt.politics.republican, soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: Bernie Madoff - a financial genius of all times
Post by Stray Dog
Maybe your state can apply to Obama for some billions in bailout money?
Huh ... they already have divided the stimulus package that has not
arrived yet.
Is that like spending money before it arives?

Maybe your state can pass a law that it gets all citizens to get a credit
card, and send all credit cards to the state govt?
phil scott
2009-01-20 15:34:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stray Dog
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 18:41:11 -0800 (PST)
Newsgroups: alt.computer.consultants, alt.politics.economics, sci.econ,
    alt.politics.republican, soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: Bernie Madoff - a financial genius of all times
Post by Stray Dog
Maybe your state can apply to Obama for some billions in bailout money?
Huh ... they already have divided the stimulus package that has not
arrived yet.
Is that like spending money before it arives?
Maybe your state can pass a law that it gets all citizens to get a credit
card, and send all credit cards to the state govt?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
on that issue, govt can and does charge back taxes or IRS claims to a
persons credit card if it will stand the hit
thats one reason i keep limited balances and no overdraft provisions.


Phil scott
Stray Dog
2009-01-20 16:46:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by phil scott
Post by Stray Dog
Post by Old Pif
Huh ... they already have divided the stimulus package that has not
arrived yet.
Is that like spending money before it arives?
Maybe your state can pass a law that it gets all citizens to get a credit
card, and send all credit cards to the state govt?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
on that issue, govt can and does charge back taxes or IRS claims to a
persons credit card if it will stand the hit
thats one reason i keep limited balances and no overdraft provisions.
Phil scott
The IRS can seize assets, but YOU can HIDE assets, too, and put in
different names, etc.

Swiss bank accounts, treasure chest burried in back yard, etc.

Hmmmmm....... do you owe IRS anything? (you don't have to answer that).
Stray Dog
2009-01-20 17:27:26 UTC
Permalink
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 18:41:11 -0800 (PST)
Newsgroups: alt.computer.consultants, alt.politics.economics, sci.econ,
alt.politics.republican, soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: Bernie Madoff - a financial genius of all times
Post by Stray Dog
Maybe your state can apply to Obama for some billions in bailout money?
Huh ... they already have divided the stimulus package that has not
arrived yet.
I thought all those packages were "bailout" packages, not "stimulus"
packages.

Or, is that a separate "new economy"?
Rod Speed
2009-01-22 02:45:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stray Dog
Maybe your state can apply to Obama for some billions in bailout money?
Huh ... they already have divided the stimulus package that has not arrived yet.
I thought all those packages were "bailout" packages, not "stimulus" packages.
Nope, most obviously with the tax rebates.
Or, is that a separate "new economy"?
Nope.

phil scott
2009-01-20 03:04:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stray Dog
Post by Old Pif
Unbelievable, yesterday (do not remember which channel)  there was a
conservative "economist" who spewed the imbecile phrase: "Yes we need
innovation in energy, in industry but also in financial sector and I
am affraid that more regulation over financial institutions will
cripple this innovation".
I was ready to fall down from the couch.  After we see that all the
"financial innovation" was nothing but scam and fraud and fraud and
scam and that the imbecile "financial innovators" brought US economy
to the ground, there are still idiot imbecile sudo-economists who
still defend "financial innovation" and are concerned about
"regulation which cripple the innovation". On which planet that mad-
man is living onto ?
The trouble is that this the current way of thinking of many
politicians among both parties.
In the state I live - Connecticut - we have a world center of hedge
funds - Greenwich. And as all other "old" industries have declined,
this one along with two casinos provides something like 60-70% of the
state taxes.
Do you have a state lottery, too, by any chance?
  This year the state has discovered that it does not have
Post by Old Pif
any tax revenue. Many hedge funds collapsed and people don't have
money to gamble in casinos. Politicians are naturally concerned but I
don't hear any sensible plans. All they are talking about is "new
economy", nobody has been able to specify what it is. They are
dreaming about new schemes that magically fill in the state coffer.
This mindset is reliably sitting in their brains apparently for a long
time because they seem don't understand how wealth is created. What I
am afraid most of all is that Obama got a lot of this people in his
economic team.
Good observation.
Maybe your state can apply to Obama for some billions in bailout money?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
piff noticed accurately that govt doesnt understand how money is
created (entrepreneurship, and production).. the state just
understands
how to waste it. Now the chickens are coming home to roost with an
absolute vengence..... I saw that aspect comming, along with the burst
of ruthlessness
we got from the IRS, all kinds of new hires and threats.... the next
event was predicable also, tax payers broke, no assets to seize, and
if seized, no way to sell them for more than wages paid to the IRS
thugs... a complete black hole proposition.

so now the IRS is trying to sound kind....what a forking hoot...
vicious bastards, are going under...and know they cant collect, and
cant afford to send thugs
anymore and if they do collect the ruin the person, or business which
then becomes non productive.

the solution now? cut taxes and give a thousand dollars back to
the marks... morons. theyve already killed the golden goose.



Myself, Ive dug in with the trade tools and what I call a zero
overhead life style... I might make it.



Phil scott
Stray Dog
2009-01-20 17:40:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by phil scott
Post by Stray Dog
Maybe your state can apply to Obama for some billions in bailout money?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
piff noticed accurately that govt doesnt understand how money is
created (entrepreneurship, and production).. the state just
understands
how to waste it. Now the chickens are coming home to roost with an
absolute vengence..... I saw that aspect comming, along with the burst
of ruthlessness
we got from the IRS, all kinds of new hires and threats.... the next
event was predicable also, tax payers broke, no assets to seize, and
if seized, no way to sell them for more than wages paid to the IRS
thugs... a complete black hole proposition.
so now the IRS is trying to sound kind....what a forking hoot...
vicious bastards, are going under...and know they cant collect, and
cant afford to send thugs
anymore and if they do collect the ruin the person, or business which
then becomes non productive.
the solution now? cut taxes and give a thousand dollars back to
the marks... morons. theyve already killed the golden goose.
Myself, Ive dug in with the trade tools and what I call a zero
overhead life style... I might make it.
Yes, you might. On the other had, IIRC, you still have SS benefits coming
if you apply for them. You might consider that if your "margin" gets too
thin.

We, also, are pretty economical here. Wifey does coupons & sales at the
grocery store, and we buy most of our clothes at the thrift stores.

House and cars are paid for, and the cars are economical to run, hardley
any breakdowns.

House just costs us $1K per year taxes, another $1 K per year for
insurance. Rest is electricity, phone. Septic tank needs a pump every 3
years ($150), and the water comes from a well (basically free).

Still running old but plenty fast enough computers here, keep them running
with my spare parts in the closet.

Wifey and I have "couch dates" to watch old video tapes that we bought
(also at thrift stores for buck each) over the years, large book
collection (also buck each).

Zero debt. Always pay off the cc bill the next month, don't even use it
that much, either.
Post by phil scott
Phil scott
phil scott
2009-01-20 02:53:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Old Pif
On Jan 19, 5:10 pm, Democracy Highlander
Unbelievable, yesterday (do not remember which channel)  there was a
conservative "economist" who spewed the imbecile phrase: "Yes we need
innovation in energy, in industry but also in financial sector and I
am affraid that more regulation over financial institutions will
cripple this innovation".
I was ready to fall down from the couch.  After we see that all the
"financial innovation" was nothing but scam and fraud and fraud and
scam and that the imbecile "financial innovators" brought US economy
to the ground, there are still idiot imbecile sudo-economists who
still defend "financial innovation" and are concerned about
"regulation which cripple the innovation". On which planet that mad-
man is living onto ?
The trouble is that this the current way of thinking of many
politicians among both parties.
In the state I live - Connecticut - we have a world center of hedge
funds - Greenwich. And as all other "old" industries have declined,
this one along with two casinos provides something like 60-70% of the
state taxes. This year the state has discovered that it does not have
any tax revenue. Many hedge funds collapsed and people don't have
money to gamble in casinos. Politicians are naturally concerned but I
don't hear any sensible plans. All they are talking about is "new
economy", nobody has been able to specify what it is. They are
dreaming about new schemes that magically fill in the state coffer.
This mindset is reliably sitting in their brains apparently for a long
time because they seem don't understand how wealth is created. What I
am afraid most of all is that Obama got a lot of this people in his
economic team.
!! 60 to 70% of connecticut state revenue comes from HEDGE FUND
taxation! and now its collapsed!

I thought california was in deep trouble...and it sure as hell
is. The connecticut situation is a real eye opener.

I wonder how many other states have revenue streams that
vulnerable. Here in silicon valley we suffered massively with
the dot com bust, in the 8 years since we have diversified
dramatically and are doing much better.... still many of the local
ciites are
having to lay off staff, stall or terminate new projects. Calif is
40 billion in debt with current income streams projected out 15 months
or so....thats with
*current income streams....as ppty values, and sales taxes continue to
fall like rocks.


Phil scott
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